TRANSCRIPT

Leaders Journal EP06: Best Boss Series (Feat. Mei Yen)

JASON:

Welcome everybody to the Leaders Journal.

Today we're going to be interviewing Mei Yen.

And this is a series of Best Bosses out there.

So they say that a great boss is hard to find, difficult to leave, and impossible to forget.

So today we're going to be joined here with Mei Yen.

MEI YEN:

Hello everyone, my name is Mei Yen.

JASON:

We're going to be hearing from her some of the leadership lessons that we can learn based on her experience.

So first and foremost, Mei Yen, one of the things we want to talk about today is Sarah.

Sarah is one of your team members last time and I have a surprise for you. I'm gonna be sharing you something and let's hear from it for a while. Is that okay?

MEI YEN:

Sure!

VIDEO CONTEXT:

We interviewed one of your ex-employees and asked them to share what they think about you as a boss.

Let's see what she has to say.

Can you share one scenario or memory that you have of Mei Yen where she stood out as the 'Best Boss' for you?

SARAH:

I think that one particular scenario that left a very deep impression in me was when she noticed a team member acting very... what's that word?

He would come to me, he would slam the files on my desk, and he would request that I do part of his work.

And as a teammate, I feel that you know, if I have additional time on hand, I will gladly help him out.

But Mei Yen noticed that my work seemed to be unfinished all the time, I'm always busy.

So when she came over to my desk and asked me, you know, how come I'm unable to, why am I always looking very busy.

So she noticed that the work that she had given to my teammate was given to me instead, was passed on to me.

So she actually told our teammate that, hey you know you're supposed to do your own (work), and Sarah has her own work to do.

I think that made my teammate very upset.

So from then on, he would come over to my desk consistently, speak very rudely to me, slam the files on my desk.

And it's an open concept office space, so everybody could kind of see what he was doing to me but no one asked him why or asked him to stop.

I think on the fourth day, I couldn't take it anymore because you know, I come to work very anxious.

When he did it again, I ran straight to the toilet.

A couple of minutes later, Mei Yen followed me in and then she called up to me and asked me, "Are you okay?"

That was when I, you know, I couldn't hold it in anymore, and I burst out crying, and I told her what happened.

I think with many bosses, they wouldn't stand in and ask what happened as long as the work gets done.

So if we meet the deadline, and all work is done, I guess that's the end of story.

What happened between the team, between colleagues, would stay between colleagues, you just need to manage it yourself.

However, with someone at such a senior position coming down to me, and saying that hey you know, I noticed something is wrong, would you like to tell me what is wrong, I would like to help you out.

I felt that it's not something which a lot of people would experience, especially when I share my cases with a lot of my friends who've been outside the workforce for many many years.

And none of them said that their boss was like mine.

So I felt that I was truly very blessed to have met someone like Mei Yen, that you know, she stood in and she tried to make sure that her team works well together, and to find out what was the core issue that's causing probably some disgruntled emotions.

VIDEO CONTEXT:

If there are 3 words that you would use to describe Mei Yen, what would those 3 words be?

SARAH:

I think I would describe her as someone who is very understanding.

She is very kind and definitely very nurturing.

You know for the amount of help that she's helped me when I first started out on the job, she was very patient.

VIDEO CONTEXT:

What is one thing that you would like to tell Mei Yen, that you never had the opportunity to tell her before?

SARAH:

Mei Yen, you know you might not think that you've had an impact on me but every time I think back on it, I still feel very touched, feel very grateful that you were there for me.

And it's made me, you know, I've learned a lot from you basically.

The way I treat my employees, I have to say, I'm very much influenced by you as well.

MEI YEN:

That brings me to tears.

JASON:

Wow, that was amazing.

MEI YEN:

That's very touching actually.

Now I've got tears in my eyes.

JASON:

I think the whole idea is that, I mean this whole idea of bosses is that (they're) really difficult to forget.

And I just want to ask you, what on earth do you do?

Why did you have such a big impact in her life?

What do you think you did differently for her?

MEI YEN:

For me, I think to be honest, I treat every one of my staff in the same way.

And I always feel that in a team where we work in, everybody needs to play a part, and everybody needs to respect each other.

You know, you can't be saying harsh words to people, doing harsh actions.

Be respectful of everybody's work, and respectful of everybody's opinions and views, and that to me is actually very very important.

And that's one of the key thing I think, we all need to have in a team.

And I think the other key thing I have is, something I need my team to always have is empathy for each other.

You know that's why I always tell them, it's not about me, it's not about you, it's about us.

You know it's about, think win-win as an organization, not even as a department but as an organization.

How can you help the organization to grow?

And put yourself in other people's shoes?

So before you do certain things, before you say something, before you act on something, put yourself in other shoes, and think about how the actions, and how the words will hurt other people, how it affects other people, and what results will it bring.

Does it bring positive results?

If it doesn't bring positive results, then maybe don't need to do it you know.

So I think those are the things I always encourage them to do.

It's not just about you or me, it's really about us, and it really is not just about our team.

So I actually encourage them to also think of people in other people's department.

You know, when people come to you with a piece of challenge, with some work or some problems, or even if they don't come to you but you see them having an issue, just don't be afraid to just step out and ask them, is there anything that I can help you?

So that's what I sort of encourage my team, to think beyond themselves.

And I'm someone who always lead by example.

So when I expect my team to be doing such things, I need to be demonstrating the values and attitudes as well.

So that's why I very proactively demonstrate this, so that it is reflected in whatever I do, whether it's for my team, or my peers, my bosses, my stakeholders.

So then that's how I sort of convince them that this is who I am, and this is why I would encourage you to do this as well.

JASON:

Mei Yen, I feel that, really you were touched by what Sarah said just now.

MEI YEN:

Yeah, yeah I am.

JASON:

For us, it's really this whole idea of being respectful and honorable to the bosses that we have had and then also to just thank them.

And that's the reason why we came up with this.

Sometimes I think you go through being a leader and all that, and sometimes we don't see the fruits and we don't know that actually after so many years it still has a very deep impact.

And then, she still remembers.

Of all the people I ask her, it's you.

It's amazing and I just want to find out because there's one thing about leadership, and this is quite interesting right.

There are two pillars, one is results and then one is relationships.

Some people overweight on one side.

I want to hear your views on that: results and relationships.

What is the importance like?

How do you actually view these two?

MEI YEN:

I actually think that, leadership is really all about results right, that's what everyone says.

But you won't have results if you don't have a good relationship.

So I think results will resolve on its own if you have good relationship.

And good relationship to me means authentic relationship.

So you have to be authentic to people, like what you see here...

JASON:

I'm actually tearing as well.

MEI YEN:

You won't see me like this in front of you and another me in front of person B and another me in front of person C.

And to me that is very important.

Authentic relationships build trust.

It builds connection.

And then it also then encourages you to be courageous enough to do things because you've got the trust of people, because you're so authentic.

People know who you are, and they know what you can take, and what you can't take, and they can then use that to help you or, you know, to tell you something honestly as well.

So to me, I believe in authenticity and honesty.

Because only when people give me feedback, honest feedback, about what I can do better, what I've not done well, then that's the way I can create results right?

And results is not just about one person right, it's about a whole team.

Which is why that relationship is very important.

The authentic relationship that you build with not just your team, but your stakeholders, your bosses, your peers, your clients.

You know I remember when I was back in Manulife right, I've got a few service providers, who's been in operation so we have a lot of service providers.

So one of the service providers said something that really also sticks to me.

And he told me, you're one of those clients who don't scold me even though I make mistakes.

JASON:

One of those... So majority of the partners, they will scold them? Oh no.

MEI YEN:

Yeah because you knowv whenever there's a mistake that is made by the service provider, what he says the clients do is to pick up a phone and start scolding them.

And so he said that he felt so appreciative because I will pick up the phone, I will ask them, okay by the way this is what I noticed, there seems to be a mistake here, so can you help to explain what went wrong?

So then I sort of didn't come in with a very harsh attitude.

I still want to know what's happening.

I still want to know what went wrong.

And then I would tell him, okay what are the solutions you have.

You know, how do you prevent this from happening, or how do you resolve this, and how long does it take.

So it's all these very factual things and then whenever he said, oh it's going to be challenging because of certain things, I would be very understanding.

So he said he was very appreciative.

So that's what I think, you know, that's also about relationships right?

And because of that, he was very willing to do a lot of things for us.

You know whenever we request for certain things, I'm sure we're one of those that he will go all out to do for us.

So that helps with great results.

So to me, relationship is the key to results.

JASON:

So Mei Yen, we're actually talking a lot about other people and the team and all that.

But how about the leader?

Is there anything that a leader should be doing themselves?

MEI YEN:

Yes.

Because our own internal experience, you know and the processes that's going on inside our brain and our body, have this direct impact on our actions, and our behavior, and our performance.

So when we talk about leadership is defined by results right?

So what what matters most is whether we can manage ourselves.

If we can't manage ourselves, how do we manage other people?

You know, so for me, I always think of, what do you put in this network?

Whatever you put in, will get back to you one day.

So if you're angry with someone, and you're said, I'm surprised and concerned that there is this mistake, so is there something that I can do to help you, or would you like to explain what went wrong, rather than you know you come in and then you start scolding them.

That will have totally different implications.

But what we have done there is just to manage ourselves, manage our emotions, and not let our emotions take control over ourselves.

Because really more than 90% of our time, we're on autopilot.

So if I'm not mindful of the anger that's coming to me, what happens is the words that come out of my mouth, and the behaviors will come out, and then I'll regret later.

So what is most important is really to master ourselves, I would say, it's self-mastery.

It's to master the ability to manage ourselves and to regulate ourselves.

JASON:

Fantastic.

So it's really about this idea of self-awareness.

And there's this psychological analogy when it comes to emotions, and this is interesting.

There's this idea of the elephant and the rider, so there's two parts right?

MEI YEN:

Ah, yes.

JASON:

Right? So the rider is logic.

But once the elephant takes over, when the emotions take over, and the rider gets kicked off, the things we say, we can never take back.

And it's always about regret.

MEI YEN:

Yes, so that's why being aware about your emotions, being aware about your thoughts as well, not just your emotions.

Actually a lot of times, it starts to manifest in your mind already right?

So being aware of what are the thoughts going through your mind before you even start to act, or start to speak, those are very important in our own self-management.

And that's what we call our own self transformation.

If you want to transform someone else, transform a company, we need to transform ourselves first, and make sure that we can manage ourselves right, that we're totally in control of ourselves.

So that takes actually a lot of effort, and a lot of discipline, and it takes a lot of practice.

I would have to say that even though I've been saying that to myself, I'm still a work in progress.

JASON:

Wow, fantastic. Thank you.

Something I really believe in when it comes to people voting for their Best Boss, which Sarah has voted that you are, it's not really about, when they think about it, it's not really about, was I able to hit the quarter's numbers right, it's always actually, does my boss care for me?

Does my boss really genuinely care for me?

And that's one of the times when, that they will say that, if a boss really cares for me genuinely then I will feel that that actually helps me to remember that that boss is one of my Best Boss.

So if I were to ask you, interesting that you said that results actually comes from relationships.

Where do you get this from actually?

Is this from since young?

Or your own manager?

Where did it come from?

MEI YEN:

That's a tough question.

JASON:

Yeah, because most of the time for leaders, it's always about results right?

Get your numbers.

Even when I coach some of the leaders, they will say that their own supervisors say don't get so close to them.

You get too close, you get emotional and it clouds your judgement.

So it's actually sometimes negative.

But then you on the other hand, actually you see that as a positive thing.

So where did it come from?

MEI YEN:

I guess I'm always a people person since I was young.

So it's probably part of my personality as well that I always like to build relationship with people.

I like to make friends, I like to know people who are different from me.

I've been volunteering since I was, not that young, I mean I started volunteering maybe after I graduated from university.

And I think those experiences really opened me up.

It's not the work that I do, but it's really the volunteering experiences where I see people who are very different from me.

People who, yet I learned so much from them.

You know, so that's where I then felt that okay, I think it's you learn from people, and from it's from all people from all walks of life.

It's not just from people who are from a certain stature, or a certain status right?

So we learn from everyone.

And to me, those relationships that I built with this variety of people sort of helps me to form a belief of who I am, and what I see I am you know?

A vision of who I am and how I want people to see me.

Because you know as I said, I'm a person who is very transparent.

You see me as who I am.

And that probably comes from all these experiences over the years, where I've seen how people behaving differently in front of different people, and I always thought, this is not good.

In fact, there was one time when I spoke to one of my bosses and said that, I noticed you said different things in front of me, and in front of your bosses.

You know, I'm a someone who is very direct.

JASON:

That's very dangerous.

MEI YEN:

That's because I built a relationship with someone.

So I always make sure that I build a good enough relationship as a buffer, so that I can be as open as I can with the person, because I believe in open communication.

I don't like to withhold my thoughts and my feelings, and then have all these things inside my head all the time, and then you form all these biases and judgments before you even speak to someone right?

So for me, I like to be open to the person.

If I have some something in my mind and I just want to find out why.

And at the time I was still young, I was just fresh from university.

So then you know with all the volunteers, speaking with everyone, and learning about their experiences, and I come back to office, and I was like, okay why is this person like that you know?

Shouldn't you treat everyone the same way?

So then he told me, that's because you're still young.

When you reach my level, you will know that you have to do that.

You can't afford not to do that because you need that to survive in an organization.

So I thought to myself, no I'm going to prove him wrong.

So I will have to stay, I want to stay authentic in all my life, whether it's for personal or whether it's for my professional life.

And I have to say, I mean I can proudly say that even after more than 20 over years in the corporate world, even when I was Head of whatever departments, I still remain authentic and people see the same person whoever they are.

And I think I'm proud of it to be able to maintain that for all my years in the professional world.

JASON:

Awesome.

So the whole idea of volunteering, is something that's really this idea that we want to be able to give to somebody without any form of return.

So that's almost like a muscle in a human being right?

And a lot of times, I heard one of the leaders in Singapore was sharing that actually volunteer work doesn't help that person as much as it also helps you because it changes something up here.

MEI YEN:

It changes perspective.

Like I say, a psychologically rich life right?

So it gives you different, it really gives me different perspectives.

Otherwise I find, okay I think I'm quite privileged.

I've always been in privileged schools you know, and so my circle of friends are people who are probably in the upper class of the society

I don't really have much of a chance, I'm not from a very rich family, but still you know because of the schools that you go to, you kind of hang around with a certain group of people who are doing very well in their career.

And so I felt at that point, that this is not about the society, this must be very different from how the society really is.

And so when I started volunteering, and when I started to see people from all over the world, and all over Singapore, different walks of life, then I realized this is what the society truly is, and I was just living in the small little world of mine which is so different from everyone else.

And that builds up empathy in me right?

And then I become more empathetic towards other people, and then I become more mindful of my actions, and what I do, and what I say right?

Whether it's to the beneficiaries, or whether it's to my staff, or whether it's to my bosses.

Yeah, so I think that really sort of shapes a lot of my belief subsequently.

JASON:

Fantastic. You share about two things really, about authenticity, that means you are who you are everywhere you go.

And the second thing is the empathy, feeling for them, that your actions and words actually come across as either a positive or negative impact.

So I want to understand from you.

You said one thing that's quite interesting.

We build a relationship so that we have that buffer to get transparency.

And a lot of times, transparency is not there in the workplace.

A lot of times, there is gossip, there is backstabbing behind people's back and all that.

So do you feel that relationships is something that helps to overcome that?

Does relationship bring transparency?

MEI YEN:

I think you can't control what people say or what people do, even if I try to build an authentic relationship, and I try to establish a deep relationship, I can't control what this person may say about me in front of other people.

But I think for me, I think as long as I've done whatever I've can you know, and I'm true to myself, and I know whatever I tell you and whatever I share with you, it is really what I really think, and you won't be able to find me saying other things about you.

You know that's what a lot of people say, I compliment you in front of you right, and I'll go to someone else and I'll ____ about you.

That is so common.

And you know, eventually what I do is that I actually told some of these people, why don't you go up to the person and just tell them, give them honest feedback?

Because I think they would do a lot better to hear from you.

And a lot of times I tell them, it could be a misunderstanding.

You only saw that particular event, or that particular episode.

You know, that's how we are.

Recently, I've been quite into mindfulness.

I don't know whether you know about mindfulness, so in mindfulness, they talk about ruminating right?

So because of something that happened in the past event, it keeps playing back over and over and over again in our mind, and then it becomes the truth, when it was actually just because of one event, but we view that person because of that one incident we've seen them.

Even if the person has done like hundreds of good deeds, but one bad incident, you'll just mar the person's impression right?

And that's sad, so I told them you know, why don't you give feedback to these people and it could be really just a misunderstanding that you felt that way.

So that was what I did, I actually talked to people like that, of course some of them may be caught by surprise because I may have thought that I built a relationship with them to be honest, and they may still feel uncomfortable hearing such things from me right ?

But I think after a while, they all know who I am, and they know that it's for their good.

Most people really still take my advice quite well, I would have to say.

JASON:

So feedback is something very interesting, and when I coach leaders, they struggle with that a lot right?

Because the main reason why they don't give feedback is because they don't want to break the relationships, or sour the relationships.

What is your view on that?

MEI YEN:

So for me, I give feedback.

In fact, because I am a person who strives to deliver good results.

I will always deliver results but not at the expense of relationships or backstabbing, things like that.

So for me, being able to deliver is very very important.

I have high expectations of my team's performance in order for me to deliver.

So even though I'm friendly to them, but I'm also very demanding, they know that about me.

So whenever I see someone who is falling behind, you know, I will actually go up to them and understand, I mean, I won't scold them, I will go up to them and really just understand whether there's any issues they are facing, any challenges they are facing, and ask how I can help.

Because I think that's how I can then help my team to flourish and to blossom right?

And to me, those are important feedback.

I don't wait until mid-year review, or end of the year review.

I give feedback as and when I see it happening, as and when I think it needs to be done.

So to be honest, my mid-year and year-end review, are just chit-chatting sessions.

Because all the feedback has already been given, as and when it should have been given, not to wait to the "official" session, you know which is mid-year or end of the year.

And they all know that my feedback is not meant to be personal, so I did tell them you know, I want to just let you know about this, so that we can all see how we can help each other.

I can help you to look into your challenges, and if it's really too much work and you're struggling, then we can see how we can re-prioritize and how we can reallocate the work right?

But if it's really about some personal issues, then we can think about other things.

So understand why something is happening, why they're not performing.

There are many reasons why people don't perform.

I also have instances where someone don't perform just because they have been always doing the same thing, they just don't really want to change, you know?

So when I ask them, do you know why you're doing this?

I don't know, I just follow what's been done in the past, you know?

So to me, I feel that if you keep continuing with the status quo, it's actually very hard for you to improve or to even deliver good results.

I encourage people to challenge the status quo, so I encourage them to have this innovative approach or entrepreneurial spirit, that's what they say.

Always think of opportunities to improve the processes, always think of opportunities to improve yourself, you know?

So feedback is where you tell them, have you thought of these other ways you can improve yourself?

And at the end of the day, they all understand that all these people will help them in their professional work.

You help them to become a better staff, or better team leader and take on, as a leader right?

So to me, I do not hesitate to give difficult feedback.

But of course I think that the tone when giving feedback is very important right?

And the timing of the feedback is very important, as I said just now.

You have to make sure that the tone is right.

I try to still have that nurturing tone, just like a mother asking her son, are you okay son?

Yeah, that nurturing approach right?

That's why sometimes they say female bosses can be nurturing right?

So that nurturing way of asking, not scolding them, or not pointing fingers at them.

So I think when we give feedback in this way and in a timely manner, it is helpful to people, and once they see that it is helpful and useful for them, they'll be very receptive to this.

I think most people would welcome that.

In fact, I think a lot of people felt that they wanted feedback, but nobody wants to give them honest feedback.

JASON:

Yup, that's the case.

MEI YEN:

To be honest, how honest are all the mid-year and final-year reviews?

They are all just motherhood statements.

JASON:

Paper exercise, because we forget.

We can't remember two, three weeks ago.

MEI YEN:

Yes, yes. And you know what a lot of people tell me?

I don't want to document all these negative things officially because I don't know how it's going to reflect on this person eventually right?

So things like that as well.

So at the end of the day, when you say can you get someone to give you a peer feedback, you'll find someone who they have been working very closely with right?

Because they only want to have good feedback.

JASON:

Good ones yes yeah yeah so

MEI YEN:

So I did tell them, it's good to have good feedback, because you need to know where you have done well, your strengths right?

You need to appreciate your strength, you also need to recognize, celebrate wins, and appreciate the strength and effort that our team has done.

But also at the same time, you also need to understand from whoever you're working with, what are the areas you can improve in.

So those are important.

JASON:

Thank you, thank you.

I think you really nipped it in the bud when it comes to feedback.

Most people struggle with it, and a lot of times they hold it off.

So I've coached MNC leaders that hold it off to the point where, yeah don't worry I'll do it in a one-on-one time.

Then I asked them, do you actually share? I forgot, forgot already. It was too small, seems too petty already if I bring it up from so long ago.

So for you, feedback has to be as fast as possible.

Any other things, and also in terms of tone, it has to be not like I'm scolding you but actually more of a nurturing tone.

Anything else when it comes to tips for feedback?

MEI YEN:

I think the other common tip is really just to be very factual right?

Just state the facts, and don't put in your opinions, your judgments in it.

Just state the facts when you give feedback, I think that's really important.

JASON:

Thank you, thank you.

Yeah, that's a whole lesson by itself.

I want to hear from you.

I hear you say this word a lot - how can I help you, how can we help you as a team?

Help, sometimes doesn't go with "leader".

Sometimes, I think most people won't use the word 'Help', they will say, just do this or why can't you do this?

It's an interesting use of words.

Why use help?

MEI YEN:

Because it's really help.

I guess, I'm a very direct person.

I just use the words I feel reflect what it actually is.

So I'm really there to help them, and in fact, when I help them, I'm actually helping myself right?

I need my team to help me to deliver my results.

So when I help them to deliver their own smaller results, I'm delivering my big results.

So in a way when I help them, I'm actually helping myself.

That to me, is help right?

And I guess, why I'm using the word 'help' so much, is also because I guess, in the volunteer world, we're really helping our beneficiaries quite a lot, and so that's a word that sort of stays with me for a very very long time.

How are you going to help your beneficiaries when you talk to them?

So it is a word I use so frequently and regularly that I don't even know that I'm using it so regularly.

JASON:

But it's actually rare.

One interesting thing is that, I think the word 'help' helps to bring people in, to know that, I mean the whole idea of leaders is that sometimes, there's two schools of thought, like we know everything, you just listen to us, we know everything.

The other one is that, actually I don't know everything, I need your help and that's why you're my team right?

And I think the word 'help' also gives them that ownership and gives them that ability to say that, I'm empowered to actually help my boss.

MEI YEN:

Yes, I think that empowerment is very good, and I think it's very important.

That to me, is also one of my values, empowerment.

I do actually empower my team and encourage them as I said just now to actually really think out-of-the-box and challenge the status quo because I may not know exactly what they're doing with their work right?

So I will need them to really come to me and tell me, hey boss, I'm thinking we can do this in another way, you know?

Can we try this out?

And that's why I've been encouraging them.

I said, don't worry if you try out and it doesn't work you know, I'm here for you right?

And I think that's an environment for me to set for the entire team, where you have the opportunity, and you have the willingness, and the courage to take risks and to fail.

Because only when you take risks and you fail, that's where you learn, and that's how you can deliver results.

JASON:

So it's a very interesting paradigm when it comes to this idea of innovation and this whole idea of efficiency.

Efficiency, you can't really fail, because you just make things faster, 1.1x, 1.2x.

But innovation is littered with failures right?

So for you to actually share that, come on, let's try on an entrepreneurial spirit or approach.

Mei Yen, there's a lot of failures that's happening.

How do you actually deal with that?

MEI YEN:

Well, we move on.

We learn and we move on.

Because every failure is a learning opportunity for us right?

You know that Chinese saying, 失败乃成功之母?

So every time you fail, you know that's a step towards a success.

So that's why I tell them, there's no need to be afraid of failures, it's all part and parcel of winning the game.

Yes, if you don't fail you can't win.

Maybe there are a few lucky ones who never have failed, and they can still win, but you know I don't think everyone is that lucky.

So I mean, just a setback, it's part and parcel of that path towards victory.

JASON:

So when there's failures that happened, because sometimes when there's failures, we waste resources, we waste time and effort.

And sometimes our bosses will look at us and say, why do you even try that out?

How do you actually handle that?

Because you gave your team empowerment to do that, but then yet there are certain things that we want to deliver.

How do you actually kind of play both sides, you know?

I need to understand the need to explain to the upper management but yet also explain to our team members, it's okay, it's okay to fail.

MEI YEN:

So I mean it all really depends on what is that nature of work that you're doing right?

Before I actually try to do that, I'll also make sure that my bosses know what I'm doing, and my bosses know that I'm also encouraging my team to try new things.

But of course with something so time critical, I really need to deliver, then you know, we may not try to be innovative at this point of time.

We will still make sure that we will go all out to deliver what is supposed to be delivered, and after that we can think of how do we improve this, when we have a bit of time in between.

It's always important to prioritize our work, otherwise my team will not have to sleep, and it won't be able to finish everything.

But there are times where I have to be, I'd say, I have great teams, they work very, very long hours just to make sure that we can deliver, and sometimes even trying out new things in the process of delivering.

Because you know how it is when we when we implement certain things right?

If you implement certain things in a certain way, and you want to come back to change it subsequently, it takes a lot more effort.

And so, sometimes even during implementation, you must already think of what are other ways we can do, or what is the implication of this on our subsequent work, you know?

How is this going to affect other people?

So we think of all these things up front, so we try to brainstorm all the potential challenges and issues upfront, even before implementation.

And that's the innovation part, you know, not like, this is something very similar to what I've been doing and I just do it the same way.

No, right.

Every single thing you do, there's always a different way of doing it.

JASON:

But this is very good.

Interesting that you have that approach because if that's more on innovation than efficiency, and you're actually encouraging that, and that's interesting because I think, a lot of people, a lot of leaders out there, the more they actually encourage these kind of things, the more they might feel out of control for certain things.

MEI YEN:

Yeah, I mean to be honest, sometimes my staff will come back and tell me, I have no time to think of all this innovation, can we just stick to what we've been doing?

It's so much faster right?

Than to try to think about different things and try to think of new ways, and think of how it might implicate other people and other processes downstream, you know.

But I said, why don't you try this this time round, and most, after a few tries, you realize that actually by doing all this thinking upfront, I'm helping to save a lot of my time, a lot of my effort, a lot of my work downstream.

And so then they then see the benefit of having this innovative, and put on that thinking cap earlier on, rather than later on, you know, and to constantly be thinking of how can they improve what they're doing.

Because by improving their processes, by thinking of new ways, by also thinking of other implications upfront, you are saving your time subsequently.

And once you see that, you start to do that all the time, without me asking, you know, they will do it themselves.

So that's what I always try to do, encourage them to try, and once you know how good it is, you don't need me to encourage you, and to drill you anymore.

JASON:

Fantastic. It's almost like you are installing in them the empowerment to try out different things so that you're actually leveraging their innovation, basically, their brilliance to actually improve overall.

MEI YEN:

I mean, to be fair, not all the time, they can come up with new things.

They will tell me, boss, I really don't know.

How? I mean, I really don't know, I've never done this before.

So that's where I will still step in, I'll just give a bit of my perspective, and then once they hear my perspective, they will start to think and then come up with their perspective as well.

So I guess we will have to still get our hands dirty.

So I'm not someone who says, okay, now take this and run, you know?

Take this piece of innovation and go and think about it yourself, you know?

I won't, I sit down in the same room as them, and we brainstorm together as a team right?

So if they're stuck, I'm there to sort of give them a bit of a push, you know?

Give them an idea, so that they can unblock themselves, you know?

That's what I do.

And it has been working.

JASON:

Fantastic.

So if I were to give an analogy, you know, if our team members are like plants right?

And they say this thing, it's not so much of the culture of the organization, but the culture of the team trumps the culture of the organization.

It can be the same different teams in that same organization, five different teams all have different cultures.

Because the greenhouse is different, and the greenhouse is very much controlled by some of the values that you want as the leader, you want to see.

So if I were to ask you, in this greenhouse and where all your plants are your team members, what are some values or principles that you abide by when it comes to really trying to build your team up for results and also the relationships?

MEI YEN:

So I think some of them, I already eluded just now.

So I was thinking about this earlier today, and I came up with this acronym called: CREAM.

Okay, so C in CREAM means contribute.

So I think a team is as strong as its weakest link.

Everyone is playing a part.

If one person were to slack, it will affect everyone else.

Because the rest will say, since this person can slack, then I can slack.

Why should I be performing to my 150% and the other person is just working 60%?

And the entire team just wouldn't perform well right?

And so it affects the morale, affects the motivation of everyone.

So everyone needs to be contributing.

Second one, is Respect.

So really respectful towards each other, no harsh words, constructive feedback to each other.

I encourage them to give feedback to each other as well, not just me to them, but also them to each other.

So I've got actually the most senior people in the team giving feedback to more junior ones, to help each other, so that's what I do.

And really just to be respectful even if someone comes up with an idea, an opinion that's totally different from yours, and you totally disagree you know?

You just to sometimes be respectful and agree to disagree right?

Show respect.

So E is Empathy, right?

So to have empathy towards everyone, not just think about ourselves but think about us, as an organization, as a team right?

And think win-win, put yourself in everybody's shoes, and so as I said, to think about how your action, your behavior, your speech is going to affect people.

And then, A is Agility and Adaptability.

So I think in a team, especially in this VUCA world that we have, you got to be agile and adaptable.

You can't just stick to a status quo and kind of just conform.

So always, always be willing to change.

Always be curious, open to new ideas, have an open and growth mindset right?

So I think that's important.

JASON:

Ya, I hear that a lot.

In terms of your growth mindset, about always trying to improve, and giving them the empowerment to improve, so that we can actually take on this VUCA world.

MEI YEN:

The last one, M is Motivation.

So I think you need to motivate yourself and to motivate each other.

And so the entrepreneurial mindset of being able to take your own initiative, have this self-starting behavior, and to actually work collegially with each other as well, you know?

Those are very important because you want to motivate yourself to do your best.

So I always tell them, no matter whether it's a small task or a big task, whether it will affect your rating or not, just do your best.

Do your best in whatever you do, and so then motivate yourself right?

So then also motivate your team.

If you feel that someone in your team is feeling down or is demoralized because of certain things, just go to them and motivate them, you know?

And I think a team who cares for each other, will work well together, and it can perform well as a team.

JASON:

Thank you, thank you so much.

CREAM is an acronym that encompasses your leadership style, and all that.

MEI YEN:

Yes, so to be the CREAM of the crop.

JASON:

Fantastic.

So I think one question I also have, is that sometimes as leaders, we see ourselves as a different identity.

So, for example, just now you mentioned a little bit more motherly, when it comes to trying to give feedback.

Are there some identities that you kind of feel that, actually this is my style of leadership?

What would some of those be?

MEI YEN:

So you know, I think one of those, my key one is really authenticity.

To be authentic.

So I think I've said this many, many times, that my key belief as a leader is to be authentic to ourselves, and to be authentic to the people around us, and whatever we do, and whatever we say.

So that to me, is they key.

The other one, is really empathy.

Empathetic towards other people, to be understanding, and to be mindful of how, what do you say and what you do, especially as a leader, right?

I mean, as a leader, what comes out from your mouth, has got a lot of implications on people's perception and our people's beliefs, and people's ideas.

Just to bring another example, I was just talking to one of my colleagues the other day, and then he was just saying that, you know I work 48 hours a day, and I'm very proud of it.

But because he's also leading another team and when we say this out to his team members, the team members feel very stressed.

JASON:

Wait sorry, sorry.

He's working 48 hours?

MEI YEN:

Yeah, he says every day I work 48 hours.

JASON:

Okay so a bit of exaggeration.

MEI YEN:

So I mean he's just saying how much work he has, he's still happy you know, he's enjoying his work.

And then he says, I work 48 hours a day you know he'd say it with zest.

JASON:

Can be uncomfortable to the rest of them.

MEI YEN:

Yes yes, so when the rest heard it, because he's a leader as well in the organization, some of them felt like, are you expecting me to work 48 hours a day too?

JASON:

Yeah, it's the silent expectation right?

MEI YEN:

Although he doesn't mean it at all, you know?

He really just said it in zest, because he really enjoys his work so much, and he doesn't mind putting in so much, even not sleeping, just to finish whatever he's so passionate about.

But so that's how sometimes we just need to be mindful of how we say things.

Because even though we may mean something very, you may not mean something mean or something bad, but that's not how people perceive it right?

So that to me is important.

And I think the last one is really to empower your staff.

As a leader, it's important you empower your staff because someone who feels empowered will feel that I've got control over what I'm doing and I feel a sense of satisfaction doing what I'm doing.

And that sense of satisfaction will push them to do more, right?

Because you feel satisfied with what you do.

And that's what sort of push them to do better in what they're doing as well.

And that's how we create good teams, who can deliver, and at the same time, like each other, which I think is important.

JASON:

Definitely, yes.

MEI YEN:

So those are the three values I have.

JASON:

So that's like another acronym - AEE.

All right Mei Yen, thank you so much.

I think just in terms of some parting words, when it comes to this idea, and a lot of leaders will be listening to this, and a lot of leaders find it very challenging because one of the most challenging things to do is to lead a team, right?

I can do my own work as an individual collaborator, no issue right?

But now I lead a team, and the team is made out of people who are so difficult to understand.

What is this one thing that you can encourage leaders that are really trying to find that balance between results and relationships but they kind of skew towards one side and they're struggling?

MEI YEN:

I would say just be true to yourself and be yourself.

Yeah, and some people may prefer results over relationships, some prefer relationships over results.

You can't, I mean you can't dictate when you must do one over the other, because it really depends on your own beliefs.

But I think believing who you are, and believe that whatever you're doing is for the best for yourself and for the people around you, whatever happens makes next, your conscience is clear.

And I think that's most important, to have your own beliefs in what you're doing.

Because there's no right or wrong answer in whatever we do in this world.

And things keeps changing, even if it's right now it doesn't mean it's right tomorrow, doesn't mean it's right next year.

So always have some key principles and then stick to what you believe in, and as long as you're true to yourself and to the people around you, I don't think you'll go too far from there.

JASON:

All right, thank you so much Mei Yen.

So we've come to the end of the interview, and for you guys listening in, stay tuned to the Leaders Journal to listen to more tips and also advice on how to become the leader that everybody wants to follow.

With that, thank you so much Mei Yen for your time.

MEI YEN:

Thank you so much, Jason.

And thank you everyone for listening

JASON:

Stay tuned and you'll find other materials that you can see in the links below.

(key words: leadership, leadershiptips, empowerment, feedback, authenticleadership, relationships, results, teamperformance)