TRANSCRIPT

Leaders Journal Ep12: HR Unfiltered (Feat. Eileen Goh)

*Text taken from YouTube captions*

do the right thing versus doing things

right

yeah i don't know whether you've heard

that before

do the right thing versus doing

things right yes

[Music]

all right welcome everybody to the show

hr unfiltered where we interview the

leaders of hr movers and shakers in the

industry we have eline today hi elene

thank you so much for coming thank you

pleasures mai

awesome awesome idi maybe share a little

bit about what you do and who you

um

[Music]

first and foremost i'm a mom of two

young kids

uh i have a four years old and a

nine year old okay oh gosh i cannot

remember his age um

i'm also a working

mother i am hr director and today i

serve in a public sector

prior to this i also had many years of

experience working in the tech

consulting

industry as well as at e-com so

rotated across different hr functions

hr is what i used to earn for living

luck right right right okay awesome i i

i personally have five kids myself i

know

yeah all the way from twelve to two

years old one more coming in july so i'm

gonna have six

[Laughter]

yeah is not enough all right great um

the reason why i invited you is really

to

hear um from you being a voice of hr and

being in the industry for so long i

always have this question when it comes

to this idea of hr nobody really wakes

up and says that i want to be a lawyer i

would be a doctor i want to be in hr

right i want to be in hr because it's

all about human capital and all that not

many people think about that right and i

have so many different friends with hr

directors they kind of like almost like

stumble towards it and they kind of like

they they grew to learn about hey that

curiosity of people drove them to really

want to be in that so for yourself where

where did this

journey begin for you

did you start off like one teenager what

happened

i belong to the second group that you

mentioned the group that tumbled into

hatred

um

but on high side there's no regret

that's why i'm still doing what i'm

doing you know

many many years from now

um

i think the reason why many people

tumbled into it is because i think hr

has never been quite considered as a

very technical

a very professional kind of um

capability but that is the

right that's true

so i didn't graduate with a hr degree

right um in fact i graduated in arts and

social science i am

i took my history i i told my honors in

history

i really love i really really love the

subject right

i have many great teachers to thank for

i really love the subject but i i i

didn't go into the course wanting

uh to teach

or you know to to to work in a more

related view like perhaps in the in the

museum or

in in even in um defense for example or

foreign affairs so it wasn't something

that um strikes me but i i took up the

the course because i was really

interested and i think

many years from

now i still think that you know passion

and interest is something so important

to drive you

um without which you know um it's gonna

be a chore like waking up every day and

even

you know try to pass your exams

so um

um

my first job out of school has

completely nothing to do with history

really nothing to do with hr either so

those who are interested can go find my

cv but

nothing related

okay

but um

but later on i had this opportunity to

handle recruitment for a very

interesting um

group of people right so i had to

recruit uh

for cabin crews right so that

was

uh

that was my first array into hr i would

say recruitment so cool yeah it was very

cool yeah and as a 24 year old five

years old it was absolutely the coolest

thing on earth so i had a very cool job

there

um so one thing led to another um i

joined a hate hunting firm

did that because i thought that hey you

know i'm pretty good at doing hiring you

know i'm pretty good at advising people

what their career

would look like if they join our

organization i'm pretty good at

dissecting their interests their passion

their strengths you know um

their keenness to do certain things so

recruiting was my first foray to hr

and i still believe that i have that

recruiter in my heart

so i'm very very open to talking to

people you know i'm the kind when you

grab

i will always talk to the driver

um

and make a lot of friends and all uh

okay

help to

pull a lot of thoughts along the way so

um yeah that was how i got into hr that

was how i got into um

human capital

um subsequently i got into a

mnc and um

rotated across had a great opportunity

to rotate across different hr functions

and um yeah that that that pretty much

leads me to where i am today

awesome very colorful story

extremely colorful story

i think a lot of people um even if i

look at my team today um not many of

them actually has a

sort of like a hr

degree you know

17 18 year old decided they want to be a

hr professional

but i think the profession really grows

in you

right and um

it grows with me

because

when i see the impact that i have

done

through the career of

one individual you know

and

the type of changes that the person has

made to accelerate his

career within the organization the the

kind of coaching you know just that um

the interaction really drives us yes i

think that that's what makes us feel

excited about coming to work um creating

that human capital impact in

organization yeah

i i think for me when it comes to this

idea of um

what you just shared it's really that

the

affinity towards the curiosity of human

beings why they think what where

can i place them

that they are going to be at their best

i mean i always give this analogy when

i'm coaching leaders uh for your team

there are eagles and ostriches right so

if an eagle you as an eagle to run

something is wrong he can do it he takes

five hours and all stretch takes one

minute for example

but there's something wrong there and

sometimes it's the idea of hr that we

can shed light to them and says hey

maybe this role

you can explore this other role and

helping them to discover themselves and

that's the beautiful thing about hr

where we're just very curious about

people why people think in a certain way

why people take in a certain way and

yeah most of the people just stumble

into hr they don't have a degree in hr

it kind of like grows on them

it grows on them of course you have that

functional capability and competency

that you need to know right whether it's

your laws and regulations your policies

you know

um

your disciplinary kind of sops those you

need to know right and i will say that

those are your foundation right if you

don't know then you know you will be

questioned in terms of your uh your your

credibility as a hr

but beyond that is that

one thing to like what you mentioned you

know

uh link all the thoughts yes right

seeing where people are best placed at

and be able to witness their growth i

think

that sort of excites me and when i see

that hey you know when i move this

person that's the kind of different

behavior that you see wow you know

that's just amazing

yeah so layman terms we kind of call it

like they feel fulfilled at work

corporate terms you call it engagement

a lot more

right

yeah all that things but this idea of um

putting people where they shine the

brightest naturally

and but that's tough that's really tough

and i do feel that's this idea that um

it's it's a challenge because a lot of

times when we we hire based on

competency sometimes when people come

into the door it's like they say that

they're competent in this but actually

there's something else and

even the idea of some companies are not

willing even though they say they're

willing to move people around yes right

have a cases where yeah open book yeah

you can move but then when you talk to

the actual leaders it's like nope you're

not taking my guy so it's almost like

that

yeah we're pushing for something but yet

the leaders themselves upper management

knowledge

they kind of like they have a certain

way of looking at things that's

different

i think um i think depends on the

industry right because in certain

industries like tech and consulting is

the way of life

right because the teams are not

structured in a very um

i mean they are not structured in the

first place right yeah they are always

squats they are in

kind of um a job set up in so every time

there is a requirement that every time

there's a project you get proven

right so it's very interesting for us to

do resource management in those areas

it's interesting but it's also very

challenging

very challenging to do resource

management in those um industry

um but and of course but

you have the more traditional setup

right you know report to somebody

somebody reported that then

you tend to be very defined in your job

right so those are the more traditional

setup whereby

you're that kind of situation

or you're not ready or just move too

much two years ago not really

yeah yeah so

it's sad right because the idea is that

um if they don't find that fulfillment

then they'll find women somewhere else

your notice period is just two months

exactly so that's why this whole area of

retention is so important and sometimes

it falls into hr side and where leaders

actually need to take that that role and

take that leadership for retention it's

not just about or just talk to hr about

anything so i just want to find out from

you like when it comes to this

there's so many learning lessons for you

when it comes to being a leader in hr

right what are some something you've

gone through that made you that leader

that you are right now

i

remember

one of my mentor

on the first day that i joined the

organization i actually observed her

running a workshop and she set this

lovely living rooting because

[Laughter]

do the right thing versus doing things

right

yeah i don't know whether you've heard

that before

do the right thing versus doing things

right yes yes because

as a

i mean in hr quite a number of things

are governance space right yeah to

create a structure you need to have

policies and you need to make sure that

there is equity and transparency

so you always want to make sure you

always need to make sure that

you

do things right

yeah but

because hr is about people right so

there are unique circumstances there are

differences in context

so sometimes you admit you have to make

the decision whether you want to follow

the policy which is doing things right

yeah or you want to do the writing for

that person

at that point in time

so

um i thought that left me with a lot of

thinking and every time i meet up with

very challenging or

conflicting situation i will think about

this

am i

trying to do things right or am i doing

the right things for the person and for

the organization

yeah so

that's one of my teachings

or a teaching that has impacted me

a lot

yeah i hope my mentor is listening to

that

please forward it to your mentor i will

i think this idea of um

it's the same when it comes to i mean

when i hear singaporeans sometimes

complain about government policies so

that's the idea that there's always this

there's always tension between

standardization and customization

standardization is for the policy but

there's customization there's unique

context where if you do things that is

right for that person you get social

equity you get this idea that that

person knows that you see them as a

person not just as a number and it goes

a long way many many miles

it goes a long way and so sometimes the

idea that

yeah that standardization is something

that um it's there to safeguard most of

the things maybe 80 70 but the 20 and 30

of leeway where we can do

really certain things then

yeah and jason you know why because

empathy goes a long way exactly

exactly yeah

yeah yeah

there was another thing that i wanted to

share with you and also whoever is

listening about this

is this topic about vulnerability in

leadership yes i don't know whether i'm

jumping around but i'm very sorry if i

am but so but it's a big thing it's very

big thing great it's a very big thing

and i'm not saying this because it is

big thing but i'm saying this because

these are the one two things that have

impacted

my job

the first one is what i have chat just

now you know big things right versus you

know doing the right thing

um

the second one is really about this

whole idea about vulnerability in

english

how it's not about

right or wrong it's not about weak or

strong yeah but it's about having that

courage yeah you know to show up

right even if you don't know what's

outcome

that's extremely important

right because i think as leader we

always feel that we need to know

everything we have this burden to say

that you know we are right at the front

we need to know everything you know we

need to solve the world's problem you

know yeah but

i

it's no i i don't think that's the right

mentality to

groom our next level of leadership

because a lot of them will look at us

and say no no i don't want to be in your

position

you know because you

i cannot solve the problem you know i

don't think i can do that but

i feel that sometimes

um and many times i don't have all the

right answers i don't even have an

answer

but it's the ability to then stand up in

front of your stakeholder

with even with your team along to say

that hey you know i don't know what's

the answer but can we do this together

yes all right you tell me what you think

we tell them we co-create a solution

right so i think that

vulnerability i i have never seen it as

a show of weakness

right but it's

more of a show of courage and it's more

visual of wanting to collaborate

so i i thought that something um that

has been quite impactful to me

um when i look at some of the leaders

that i've worked with

um

and and how that has

dropped off with me as well

yeah so i just wanted to share that as

well yeah big very big thing um it's

it's definitely a buzzword but it's also

the idea that we're going back to being

a human being

right the idea that leaders have all the

answer now we don't have all the answers

actually we never had all the answers

which is we just appeared

of that show of strength but the idea of

vulnerability helps

open up that

atmosphere in the team

where people start to also be vulnerable

and the beautiful thing about it that if

you're not vulnerable as a leader

then most of the people around you will

start to cover up

because they think that that's a show of

strength

never say something that you don't know

but if the leader can do that then

actually you are creating that

atmosphere of

vulnerability which which

which feeds into this idea of trust that

means we can open up even more and it's

okay that we don't know yes and you

build that loyalty too

exactly exactly because we don't we

really don't have all the answers and

because

if we're up there we need the people on

the ground to be able to share with us

and their insight sometimes is so much

more powerful than what we see up there

yeah

i remember very clearly um

one of the incidences that that i think

will forever leave a mark on me

um was uh was when i was a partnering a

very senior um business partner

um and um there was a

a case whereby we need to reprimand

um one of her very very top

um

leader i would say

okay and

i think the whole

case was

very challenging very very tricky and

very emotionally training

[Music]

we had to do what we had to do

but at that point where we shared the

outcome

to the individual

the leader that was sitting beside me

um was actually

suppressing her tears

okay

yeah because um i think it was

very very emotional for her to see that

one of her best people is being

reprimanded this way but she understands

that it has to be done

so

at that moment

i thought

completely you earned the trust

completely unloyalty

yeah so i could still see that very

strong connection between the two of

them until now

um and i thought it was such a

very commendable thing

i know it she didn't she definitely

didn't engineer thing or

didn't do this on purpose but it's just

such a real outflow of um emotion um but

yet of that um

that

leadership um

you know

that that

i don't know how to explain it but she

she wanted to do so much for the person

but she can't um but

she told the person that you know this

is what you have to do i will cut you

along you know but we need to go through

this space

yeah so it was

very memorable

yeah sounds super impactful and i think

that yeah the relationship was

strengthened because of these things

yeah as human beings when we when we

start to show up and we show up as who

we are and we don't know there was this

whole idea of um

one of the most uh difficult phrases to

say as a leader is i messed up

right

and just taking it and taking the full

brunt of all the resources wasted and

all that and just saying that i messed

up really opens the door to everybody

else saying that yeah um let's be a

little bit more vulnerable let's be a

little bit more open

my leader can do that i can do that as

well and they cascades down as well

yeah correct correct i think it's that

you know you create that environment

where you acknowledge that people do

fail

because we are humans after all right

yeah yeah so that that sort of put

people at a a

secure and safe environment

to make that too

yeah so i think that it's is

it's very rare but um more and more i

feel that that's what uh the next

generation

you know is looking for

yeah this idea that you just mentioned

about safety the psychological safety

another big buzzword when it comes to

leadership and hr

is to create a space where everybody can

know that failure equals to learning

rather than failure equals to

detrimental outcomes because if it's the

second one then we will just hide we'll

lie and we'll fake

yeah

correct which is not what any

organization wants

of course

yeah

so idin thanks for sharing that i just

want to hear from you so

you've been a practitioner hr so long

and i'm sure that you see some best

practices out there and also some worse

practices out there just want to hear

your thoughts you know like for example

practices could be things like um

yeah i i mean this whole idea of

performance review

right now

being sometimes people are saying that

why are you doing once a year it should

be constant right so sometimes that the

idea okay

maybe we should have changed it to a

little bit more regular and all that

just want to hear from you like in your

experience when it comes to the idea of

best practices that you have when it

comes to hr

what would that be

i try to adopt some of those myself

which is

having that instantaneous constant

feedback

right you don't give feedback six months

later right and then you call that guy

to say that hey now six months ago you

didn't do this that's why

i think that's just ridiculous yeah but

i feel that um it's not stop okay it's

very easy for us to say because we're in

hr right you know we are practitioner we

we do that all the time we remind our

managers to do that all the time yeah

but

it

we must remember that

speaking of such um

performance it can be a bit uh

challenging it can be a bit of a

difficult conversation very very

sensitive yeah right and they don't like

to go there

yeah i've seen this kind of behavior

across the most junior to the most

senior managers

they still don't like to do that right

yeah they don't right so that's

something which i feel um

um

can hr come in to fill the gap

well

it's hard it's very hard because they

even they are i'm not the one who's

you're not there performance right i'm

not there to pick you up i'm not there

to give you a reminder i'm not going to

correct your course so while i can come

in with a stick or a carrot

as hr because we have policies and we

have um

you know

the rewards and rewards and

tools right

but i'm not there to to help the guy

picked up right evaluate exists so it's

it's it's definitely very important for

us to give that kind of um instant or

point in time

kind of feedback to pull that guy up to

hey you know this email wasn't written

in a very

you know concise manner can you sharpen

this that's when

otherwise you know when you just put it

down in the books and call him at the

end of six months it's yeah it's not um

it's not going to help him not very

beneficial not very efficient as well

it's not efficient for us it's not good

for the fellow because he has no chance

he doesn't he's not even aware

so i think um having that feedback loop

is it's very very important

um

if you ask me um whether it's important

to do you know having a bell curve not

bell curve

i think that's a

very long debate that we're gonna and

i'm not gonna go yeah

all hr people have different

points and you know considerations about

that but i think it depends

heavily on the state of your

organization and the readiness of your

leadership at a point in time

yeah whether you want to

adopt whatever performance management

kind of

system yeah so it's very dependent on

that

so i would say that if you ask me for a

actually best practice in the in the

worst practice you know i'm giving you

that same example

don't do this and do this

right right right right thank you for

sharing that i do when i coach some

regional directors

um they will say that they will do the

performance review right when they do

the performance review like um i always

ask them so when do you last give

feedback no don't worry i'm gonna talk

to them in two weeks time or in three

months time then when they go to that

time they don't bring it up because why

you only have a short window

of bringing up everything and it sounds

so weird you bring up things three

months ago and you always say the nice

things

yeah and you always say nice things so

that's

that's the scary thing when it comes to

this idea of feedback uh there's some

companies that i consult for and

sometimes they just really like gold

90.5 i only hear the good stuff

which is really bad

to the point where it's like then where

is that feedback and yeah they don't

have that

yeah yeah anything else when it comes to

your your experience when it comes to

best practices i don't like like i don't

like feedback

i i mean this might be something which a

lot of hr practitioners

hr practitioner already know but i think

you cannot um undermine the whole focus

on capability development

right and i do that a lot for my own

team as well

because more so because people think

that hr is not a professional you know

uh profession you know

um but

there are certain competency and uh

hard-nosed knowledge that

you need to know

right and i think it's extremely

important for all of us to be

well-versed in the work that we do

i remember one of my leaders in the

organization before she always used the

word what are you famous for evie said

what are you famous for i don't know one

famous book

what are you famous for why would people

engage you right why would they come in

why would they hire you what are you

famous for so i think it's the same

right for hr regardless of where you

work at right whether it's from a man or

your tn telemanagement recruitment be

the best person in that function and

what that means is that you have to

always sharpen your soul yeah

iron sharpen iron right you have to

sharpen your soul

so mingle with the right people network

you know do your own um

learnings and and listen

read up so i think that's very important

otherwise you'll always be in your own

home and

you basically stagnate in your knowledge

so

i feel that you know for hr practitioner

don't be comfortable where you are in

your zone there's so much up there last

week we were some of us were just at the

hr tech fest

so a lot of amazing innovation um that

we've seen how do we then incorporate it

to

fit into the

art and science part of the guitar right

so i think it's about that constant

learning yeah so again

i'm not something that is out of the

world but something that i truly believe

in

yeah i think um

it's funny that you share that when it

comes to capability for hr

because it's also quite new and there's

so many things to learn from in

different in this uh different ways and

also even the future right

i find that when i talk to hr directors

there are a thousand things we can adopt

but we're just not sure what

this that's the that's the challenge

right there's there's a new thing or new

framework coming up oh this one there's

this new tech that's coming up there's

so many things and we're just kind of

inundated with

so many solutions and when i talk to hr

it's like really the

i see them

very much trying out certain things and

sometimes they will try out for one two

years and be like um okay that was not

bad then after they will try another

thing oh not too bad and this can happen

for five ten

years

and it's just about just trying out

because they are

you know

yeah

there's no perfect thing and different

organizations that will work for you but

the other organization doesn't you know

what i think um jason i think back again

to

the state of your organization yeah the

state of your human capital

yeah so you have to mirror that

organization that you are supporting

right yeah so for example a

startup right yes

what's the human capital um requirements

or priority at that point in time is it

to scale right uh is it to

you know hire quickly

all right so so those

so your priority your hr projects your

should be there

would be targeted to solve this problem

right but if you look at some of the

others like a more established mncs

right so what are their problems right

is it about renewal is it about

succession huh then maybe your solution

will be taken it was will be able will

allow you to tackle more of those

so it depends on the first of all of

course your state of your organization

and what are your organization

priorities relating to people human

capital at that point in time yeah

and i think

that should always be your

north star

yeah i have a i have a question very

interesting question

because

as hr we want to be able to implement

certain things so we come up with a way

we we go and we see so many different

solution providers out there and we said

okay i think this is good for our

organization and other management gives

green light right however upper

management doesn't sometimes doesn't

align to it and sees it as hr you drive

it yourself

and that's where the big disconnect

comes where it's like okay hr is pushing

it but if my leaders don't even care

about it then how

there's a book that i was reading i'm

looking at my bookshelf

now it's called

it's the power of moment the power of

moments you know that book no there was

this line that says

um if they don't

what is it

if they

if they don't believe it's their problem

they will not buy your solution

something like that something along the

lines

if they don't believe that it is your

pro their problem they would buy the

solution i'll give you the line later

the correct line is a lot more impactful

but basically means that if your leaders

doesn't see this as a problem if they

feel that it is not in they are

you know in the horizon they are bigger

fish to fry

no matter what solutions you present to

exactly it's not going to work

yeah so which is why i think

we always as a hr leader you need to

align that priorities if you truly

believe that it's going that problem

that you see today is going to impact

the bottom line of the organization then

you journey will go and make your case

yeah right fight for it otherwise then

you know

a line

yeah otherwise no matter what fancy

products or you know yeah it's beautiful

why

yeah because you do some a lot of our hr

i feel that a lot of our hr projects

mandate campaigns whatsoever it needs to

be top down

yeah because people need to see that buy

it exactly however that's the that's the

issue

i see a lot of hr initiatives where the

leader has

shared that that they are aligned to it

but when it comes down to the trickling

of the actual things it might not be so

forthcoming and that's the challenge

that hro needs to kind of think about

something else and something else and

all that are you saying because of the

communication breakdown or

operationalization of it

i think they need to see uh as upper

management

they need to see that whatever hr is

coming up with right there is gonna be a

sacrifice in time and effort

quite a lot of it not just about oh okay

hr you just run your own show and then

we just support you with finances and

resources

but they kind of like need to so they

need to they talk the talk

and hr can't just push it and say hey

guys we're doing this we're doing this

and everybody in the upper management

doesn't do anything yeah

and it will fall flat yes very often yes

very often so i see that in two

three-year cycles all the time in

different organizations we do this we

stop that then now we have something

else hey this is gonna be the new silver

thing and we do that and then it stops

again

now it's just that

i don't know is it the bandwidth that

they had for is it priorities but

i see this disconnect and this will just

keep happening you can buy that the best

software

last week if you went there you can buy

the best software and then say okay

we'll do this but then upper measurement

doesn't do it to senior management

senior management won't do it to middle

management hr would be like hey have you

done it no i haven't does your boss do

it no he doesn't

then you just be okay three years time

we'll do something else

that's a challenge yeah that that that

investment needs to be there and that

um cascade needs to be there yeah

yeah

correct

it's very painful because um like what

we have earlier said also right that a

lot of people feel that hr is just for

hr right otherwise what do you do right

good job right

yeah

yeah but

yeah but the thing is that people right

people people leave their bosses

not organizations

yeah i think that's that's a perennial

truth right so a big time yeah so again

if you feel that you can outsource

everything to hr then you're very very

wrong

i'm afraid so

yeah we are here as you know as your

business partners we are here at the

recruiting partners you know we help you

find the right talent and fit that into

the organization but day to day you do

need to pay attention um

pay attention to their growth and

development they are they are humans not

machine that you just bought

exactly

in my mind always think about hr

sometimes organizations see them as

nannies

right if you do the work it's okay

everything is fine if you once has some

issues then okay you go to your nanny

then let nanny talk to you then come

back again when actually

you're relinquishing that responsibility

which should be you

hmm

yes we play a nanny role unfortunately

that changes

but i always tell tell whoever is

listening to me i only have two kids

[Laughter]

right

so elite one more one more last question

i'm always very curious about the future

the future of hr the future landscape

what's going to happen

and there's this shift about

you know this great resignation uh this

whole idea of people now a long time a p

ago people are about loyalty it's about

security it's about paycheck now it's

about purpose it's about drop hopping

and all that

and um

it's going to be very different even now

the university degrees when i think

about it it's like hey in five years you

don't need that degree you just give a

good portfolio of what you've been doing

and you go there maybe you hired and

that could be even better to a hiring

manager than you having at that degree

because

robert didn't meet the road yet so just

want to hear from you live there's one

take in terms of the future of hr

what should we look out for

i should have two two thoughts about

this the first one is what you mentioned

about um the great resignation and i

think a lot have been talk spoken about

it and

i'm not going to turn to it but i think

what is required of us in hr is a lot of

change management

right

um

because of the way that things are

running um people come and go you know

leaders come and go

you have a lot of people there's a lot

of churn and there's a lot of people

movement how then do you make sure that

there is continuity in the work that you

do

and that at any point in time your

onboarding is swift it's very efficient

you know gives you exactly what you need

at that point in time and then just move

on right so

that revolving door culture

um we used to call it revolving door

culture in my generation like a negative

thing right but now

uh it is it's called fake you know it's

called sprint it's called you

know yeah i think it's all about your

lens at which you look at things right

um when people move around i think they

get ideas quickly um they get exposure

faster and you know they are sort of

forced to um

maybe exercise a different muscle right

so i thought that's not necessarily a

bad thing exactly it's not right it's

not right but i we're not talking about

crater to grave you know but really what

then

is the responsibility of hr i think it's

then to make sure that when a person

comes to your door whether it's

one year or one month you make the best

out of that person yeah right so that is

what i thought will be the additional

expectation for us as hr to be very

nimble right whether to use to find

person quickly or to train the person

quickly or to engage the person quickly

everything has been done to be done at a

you know at a very nimble speed yeah so

that that's the expectation that we have

the second point that i wanted to make

and on reflection is also that

we often talk about hr as the

intersection of art and science

right

um i like that

yeah you can't do hr

purely as art then you are just too

you know emotional and to feel it yeah

not too silly right

but at the same time if you look at just

data data data data all the time right

no

people analytics or you know just human

human analytics

that is not

that will probably means that your work

can be replaced by a robot

right um but the core of hr is really

how you use some of this data

to make people-centric

um

decisions yeah programs policies to

improve the way that we work

so i i thought that the intersection of

people

yeah and uh data the size of hr

is going to be even more um

uh urgent even more um

critical in the days to come i think

covet pushes a lot to the right side

when we talk about analytics data

because talk about uh hybrid work right

so all this technology hr technology

that i that

that helps us to work more efficiently

and effectively i think the last two

years we have seen a boom in that yeah

and whether we like it or not we just

pushed

yeah but i think uh let's not forget the

art part of it which is the human factor

right so i think

all hr will need to find a good

equilibrium

um when you look at these two components

because that is the essence of hr

services of human beings as well

yeah we are fully made up of both facts

emotional and logical

exactly

right thank you thank you so much

all right

thank you so much for your time really

sharing all these things i do i mean um

this whole idea of

uh being a voice and really sharing

certain things about hr that it's just

some of the things just emphasizing

which is really important and but the

other thing is is the idea that um we

are in a landscape that's going to be

very very very dynamic i mean this whole

idea of human capital moving around so

much right how do we be nimble so

quickly while there's so many solutions

out there which solution is the best

thing and i think it's like if i'm in hr

position i'll be like well just

inundated with solutions whether or not

my upper management has that buy-in

because they still focus on that

strategy and business and all that and

my hope is that hr just really

really comes to the foreground where

we make this decision based on the human

capital we have as well

and it runs together

all right thank you so much edin for

your time really appreciate this chat

and for those of us here who are

listening in uh do stay tuned for more

hr unfiltered where we talk to leaders

movers and shakers of the h landscape

thank you so much eddie thank you thanks jason

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